> “The General” and Annabelle may be Johnnie's two great loves, but the train arguably earns it more than she does.
Ha. Anyone who make you jump through hoops to earn their affection not going to make you happy in long run, and me always imagine that after movie end Johnnie continues to frantically try and please Annabelle and probably never wise up. And yet that kind of fit hapless character. At least his train always there for him!
is Annabelle the worst of Keaton's potential love interests? I remember the woman in The Navigator being rough, but his character in that was kind of a putz at the beginning.
Me will admit me have not seen enough of Keaton to pass judgement. But me feel like making love interest even slightly more high maitenance would put her in catgeory of obstacle and not reward.
Sherlock Jr. was the first Keaton movie AND the first silent film I ever saw. It was in a film history class (with live accompaniment!) and it remains my favorite but The General is right up there. You two mentioned most of my favorite moments but how about the timing when Keaton is sitting on the front of the engine and throws one railroad tie at the one blocking his path, flipping it off the tracks? The absolute perfect timing of it just makes me laugh with delight every single time I see it.
I truly believe The Lost Cause was the most effective propaganda campaign in our country's history, and it used the burgeoning art form of the movies to a stultifying degree. From cinema's onset until Glory in the 80's you'd be hard-pressed to find a heroic Union soldier on the big screen. Whatever positivity given to the Union cause was instead rolled into hagiographies about Abraham Lincoln, and even then they didn't delve into the Civil War at all (see John Ford's "Young Mr Lincoln").
But as lousy cinema was with this, TV may have been worse. Every small screen cowboy seemingly had been Confederates.
Maybe though I'm wrong. Were there any notable heroes given any allegiance to the Union before the 80's?
Oooh, interesting point. You're right- it's a surprisingly difficult task. The only one I can think of is Mr. March from Little Women, who is barely mentioned. And I'm not sure how much that counts since the movie is based on a book from the 1860s.
This is most definitely an exception that proves the rule, because your point is spot-on, but while tons of heroes in old Westerns were former Confederates, Paladin on Have Gun, Will Travel fought for the Union. (Which is another reason that show was awesome.)
There's a bit of a shift in the 40s/50s (or, films start to at least question the Confederate cause as it becomes entrenched in TV). You get more "team-up" films where Union and Confederates either have to work together after the war (Stagecoach, Fort Apache) or during (Two Flags West, Major Dundee). They Died with Their Boots On (42) is a hagiography of Custer, including a good deal of his service with the Union in the Civil War. The Red Badge of Courage (51) is focused on a Union soldier, though it's fairly apolitical. John Wayne is a Union soldier in both The Horse Soldiers (59) and Rio Lobo (70), though the latter also includes some "fun" confederates. Friendly Persuasion (56) doesn't focus much on Union soldiers (its about pacifist Quakers in Indiana), but the Confederates are the clear aggressors.
How the West Was Won's "Civil War" section is actually a good summing up of all these movements: it's mostly apolitical but centered on a Union protagonist; it seems to bend toward a "war sucks, why can't we be friends" reconciliation message before ultimately suggesting that the confederates are really at fault for the whole mess.
That "war sucks" message became even more prevalent as Vietnam raged on. Where The Good The Bad And the Ugly made a point of switching sides between the Union and Confederacy and opining that the whole exercise was just a waste of life for no real gain. I don't think that's tone in present day, now that films like "Harriet" are finally getting made.
I love The General above all else and I think the ambition is such a big part of its appeal, but I do think The Navigator is an underappreciated film. I think when he gets into a sword fight with... well, a sword fish, that's very funny.
And I'm going to say something quite heretical. I actually don't love Sherlock Jr. I think set pieces like the pool game are spectacular, but not especially funny. It goes on for a long time without really building in intensity. Once you realize he's not going to hit the dynamite ball, there's not much suspense left. It's the ambitious way that each set piece escalates in The General that I think makes it so exciting.
I will very happily come to bury The General. I watched it for the first time last year and while I could recognize the technical skill, I just couldn't connect emotionally with a film so steeped in Lost Cause-ism that it expects me to root for the Confederacy. I couldn't even find it that funny. Keaton took a story of Union heroism written by one of the Union soldiers involved and twisted it to take the side of slavery, and I just can't get past that.
I "discovered" Buster Keaton when I was in high school thank to AMC (they actually did show movies at one point), and I splurged on the Keno VHS sets back when I barely had any money to do so. And I remember not quite loving The General, while Sherlock, Jr. knocked me off my feet. There are stunts in The General that blew my mind, but I just didn't really care about the main character in the same way I cared about other Keaton characters, and it's probably the Confederate angle. I don't really have anything to add to this excellent discussion, just that it's made me want to go on a Buster Keaton binge again, as it's been too damn long.
Love this movie but weirdly would be fine with its position slipping if it got replaced by other Keatons. Sherlock Jr. is his masterpiece for me (not sure if that’s also on the list) and Steamboat Bill Jr. seems weirdly underrated for being an absurdly perfect movie. Even The Cameraman, which many would probably consider impure due to it being his big studio movie, is excellent and on the same level as The General for me.
Now if we really want to get in the weeds we can talk about how Battling Butler is his most underrated and one of the best boxing movies ever
"The explanation is much simpler: Voters have decided they like Keaton’s Sherlock, Jr. more. The two have moved in opposite directions over the past three polls, with Sherlock Jr. at #81 in the 2002 poll, #59 in the 2012 poll, and #54 in 2022."
From TheReveal, "#95 (tie): 'The General': The Reveal discusses all 100 of Sight & Sound's Greatest Films of All Time" (mult. authors)
Some years back, my intro to Keaton was through a screening of some of his shorts. The General was hist first feature length film I saw, and it was partly due to its ranking on the 2012 list. I was somewhat disappointed. I think I was hoping for more comedy, less action. And yet, it does remain impressive in terms of stunts it does. I haven't revisited since finally getting myself to watch more of his features, which were probably closer to what I was expecting. I do wonder how it'd play on rewatch, with my expectations more correctly set for what I was getting.
I'm in the camp of "great technically, not much more to it than that", but I'm also not generally a Keaton guy. I need to read Camera Man at some point though because Dana Stevens is fantastic, so I imagine I'll give it another try in the hopefully not too distant future.
> “The General” and Annabelle may be Johnnie's two great loves, but the train arguably earns it more than she does.
Ha. Anyone who make you jump through hoops to earn their affection not going to make you happy in long run, and me always imagine that after movie end Johnnie continues to frantically try and please Annabelle and probably never wise up. And yet that kind of fit hapless character. At least his train always there for him!
is Annabelle the worst of Keaton's potential love interests? I remember the woman in The Navigator being rough, but his character in that was kind of a putz at the beginning.
Me will admit me have not seen enough of Keaton to pass judgement. But me feel like making love interest even slightly more high maitenance would put her in catgeory of obstacle and not reward.
Sherlock Jr. was the first Keaton movie AND the first silent film I ever saw. It was in a film history class (with live accompaniment!) and it remains my favorite but The General is right up there. You two mentioned most of my favorite moments but how about the timing when Keaton is sitting on the front of the engine and throws one railroad tie at the one blocking his path, flipping it off the tracks? The absolute perfect timing of it just makes me laugh with delight every single time I see it.
I truly believe The Lost Cause was the most effective propaganda campaign in our country's history, and it used the burgeoning art form of the movies to a stultifying degree. From cinema's onset until Glory in the 80's you'd be hard-pressed to find a heroic Union soldier on the big screen. Whatever positivity given to the Union cause was instead rolled into hagiographies about Abraham Lincoln, and even then they didn't delve into the Civil War at all (see John Ford's "Young Mr Lincoln").
But as lousy cinema was with this, TV may have been worse. Every small screen cowboy seemingly had been Confederates.
Maybe though I'm wrong. Were there any notable heroes given any allegiance to the Union before the 80's?
No notes on this. 10/10. In retrospect, it was a mistake to consider Confederates lovable underdogs rather than treasonous loser scum.
Oooh, interesting point. You're right- it's a surprisingly difficult task. The only one I can think of is Mr. March from Little Women, who is barely mentioned. And I'm not sure how much that counts since the movie is based on a book from the 1860s.
This is most definitely an exception that proves the rule, because your point is spot-on, but while tons of heroes in old Westerns were former Confederates, Paladin on Have Gun, Will Travel fought for the Union. (Which is another reason that show was awesome.)
There's a bit of a shift in the 40s/50s (or, films start to at least question the Confederate cause as it becomes entrenched in TV). You get more "team-up" films where Union and Confederates either have to work together after the war (Stagecoach, Fort Apache) or during (Two Flags West, Major Dundee). They Died with Their Boots On (42) is a hagiography of Custer, including a good deal of his service with the Union in the Civil War. The Red Badge of Courage (51) is focused on a Union soldier, though it's fairly apolitical. John Wayne is a Union soldier in both The Horse Soldiers (59) and Rio Lobo (70), though the latter also includes some "fun" confederates. Friendly Persuasion (56) doesn't focus much on Union soldiers (its about pacifist Quakers in Indiana), but the Confederates are the clear aggressors.
How the West Was Won's "Civil War" section is actually a good summing up of all these movements: it's mostly apolitical but centered on a Union protagonist; it seems to bend toward a "war sucks, why can't we be friends" reconciliation message before ultimately suggesting that the confederates are really at fault for the whole mess.
That "war sucks" message became even more prevalent as Vietnam raged on. Where The Good The Bad And the Ugly made a point of switching sides between the Union and Confederacy and opining that the whole exercise was just a waste of life for no real gain. I don't think that's tone in present day, now that films like "Harriet" are finally getting made.
I love The General above all else and I think the ambition is such a big part of its appeal, but I do think The Navigator is an underappreciated film. I think when he gets into a sword fight with... well, a sword fish, that's very funny.
And I'm going to say something quite heretical. I actually don't love Sherlock Jr. I think set pieces like the pool game are spectacular, but not especially funny. It goes on for a long time without really building in intensity. Once you realize he's not going to hit the dynamite ball, there's not much suspense left. It's the ambitious way that each set piece escalates in The General that I think makes it so exciting.
I will very happily come to bury The General. I watched it for the first time last year and while I could recognize the technical skill, I just couldn't connect emotionally with a film so steeped in Lost Cause-ism that it expects me to root for the Confederacy. I couldn't even find it that funny. Keaton took a story of Union heroism written by one of the Union soldiers involved and twisted it to take the side of slavery, and I just can't get past that.
I "discovered" Buster Keaton when I was in high school thank to AMC (they actually did show movies at one point), and I splurged on the Keno VHS sets back when I barely had any money to do so. And I remember not quite loving The General, while Sherlock, Jr. knocked me off my feet. There are stunts in The General that blew my mind, but I just didn't really care about the main character in the same way I cared about other Keaton characters, and it's probably the Confederate angle. I don't really have anything to add to this excellent discussion, just that it's made me want to go on a Buster Keaton binge again, as it's been too damn long.
Love this movie but weirdly would be fine with its position slipping if it got replaced by other Keatons. Sherlock Jr. is his masterpiece for me (not sure if that’s also on the list) and Steamboat Bill Jr. seems weirdly underrated for being an absurdly perfect movie. Even The Cameraman, which many would probably consider impure due to it being his big studio movie, is excellent and on the same level as The General for me.
Now if we really want to get in the weeds we can talk about how Battling Butler is his most underrated and one of the best boxing movies ever
To answer if Sherlock Jr is also on the list:
"The explanation is much simpler: Voters have decided they like Keaton’s Sherlock, Jr. more. The two have moved in opposite directions over the past three polls, with Sherlock Jr. at #81 in the 2002 poll, #59 in the 2012 poll, and #54 in 2022."
From TheReveal, "#95 (tie): 'The General': The Reveal discusses all 100 of Sight & Sound's Greatest Films of All Time" (mult. authors)
Some years back, my intro to Keaton was through a screening of some of his shorts. The General was hist first feature length film I saw, and it was partly due to its ranking on the 2012 list. I was somewhat disappointed. I think I was hoping for more comedy, less action. And yet, it does remain impressive in terms of stunts it does. I haven't revisited since finally getting myself to watch more of his features, which were probably closer to what I was expecting. I do wonder how it'd play on rewatch, with my expectations more correctly set for what I was getting.
As we all know, Sherlock Jr. must continue its ascent long enough to be screened aboard spaceships in the 32nd century.
I'm in the camp of "great technically, not much more to it than that", but I'm also not generally a Keaton guy. I need to read Camera Man at some point though because Dana Stevens is fantastic, so I imagine I'll give it another try in the hopefully not too distant future.
just got around to reading this, but I want you both to know how much I loved this piece. I'm looking forward to this whole series now.
and that kino set seems out of print? so sad.
Ugh, looks like you're right on the Kino collection. Such a bummer.
And thanks for the kind words. It'll be a fun journey (though Histoire du Cinema and Satantango will take some heavy-lifting on our part).
"I might make a case for Go West"
I would like to hear this case.